NYR E5

Now that we have large numbers of people that want to run E5 on the weekends, I think we should look at managing it better.

We should limit standard runs of NYR E5 for properly geared players so we can get it done without wiping over and over, and have a "learning" run where under-geared tanks, healers, and dps can learn the mechanics of the fight so they can join the standard runs once they learn the fight well or can be a carry dps on a standard run since they know how to place filth, how to hide etc.

Higher geared players can volunteer and rotate in for the learning runs. I'd suggest one standard run followed by a learning run each weekend that people can sign up for. If that's not enough we could consider adding another, but it would stop us from spending an hour or more on NYR E5s and not completing it - unless it's a learning run and then that's ok.

Thanks,

Duude

As I have both experience on kill NYR E5 within 5 minutes and wiping with learning group for 3 hours.
I can conclude that people join NYR E5 with different mindsets. And that may causes issue.
Some enjoys the learning experience more than the result like Panda. (Yeah, I am just so twisted trying to see when people want to give up and join the dark side today. But, most people didn't, even when they clearly knowing there is an option that can finish the raid within 5 minutes... 😝 )
Others are more willing to see the result no matter the meanings. I can be reckless like that as well sometimes... It shall be no shame to acknowledge that and talk about that openly instead of just PM me. :>

Thus, I think we shall separate raids into different groups with people having different desires and figure out how to best match everyone's needs.
I will be here to carry. If people need and I am not too busy with other stuffs...

Thing is, when signing up for a raid you do not currently know 'what you're getting yourself into', as today showed. There should be balance. There is no balance if E8+ geared players are wiping for more than an hour (or more for 20 mins for that matter) if they expect to just do a quick e5 NYR clear for the week. If the goal is to clear it asap, you should clear it asap. It's fine running it multiple times to help one another, but it should be 1-3 shots max per run and you'll need 2 well geared tanks, a good healer and at least good 3 DPS (>10k). Group composition should be such that you have a obvious chance of clearing it (ignoring lag/dc's etc.). A group with 2 >10k dps, some 4k dps and some <3k dps however is not cool if you're expected to clear it. Unless of course it's a learning/teaching run you sign up for. Personally I am even fine with wiping multiple times if the goal is to teach one or two players to learn the fight, even more so if it concerns a tank (one at a time) but I'd like to know in advance if that's the goal.
For example: Currently people sign up for E5 NYR with <3k dps, something I personally am not cool with, as they seem to expect to be carried (again, unless it's clear that it's a learning run, but currently you don't know)
If the goal is to learn/teach, everything goes and you can expect to wipe multiple times (set a clear length, say 1 hr, so people know), like with the current e10 raids. Something everyone should do, especially people who have not spend hours and hours wiping to learn the fight.
SO to stick with Keepers input, create raid for people of different mindsets and make the groups fit those 'mindsets'.

My 2 cts. Done 'ranting'

ps good suggestion Duderino

Learning runs are a tricky thing to organise tbh. People are less likely to join runs where the aim is not to get a clear, just to practice mechanics, (just to clarify, not saying learning runs can't get kills, just that if people are only trying to practice, it makes it far less likely).

"Properly geared" means you have e5 gear. The raid is doable with 10 e5 geared players. There are all kinds of potential issues if people start issuing gear level requirements arbitrarily. After all, someone e5 gear may out dps someone in e6 gear if they know the mechanics of the fight well, their rotation well etc. That goes for all of the roles too - you can heal, tank or dps the e5 raid in e5 gear. The only real problem is about hate generation by e5 tanks not being able to hold uber dps, but that can be fixed by having the dps relax and take it easy. There is no difference between a 3 min kill and 9m59s in terms of the end result - 1 dead lurker and 1 phat loot chest.

There is no guarantee that taking a team of overgeared people will get a quick kill. If people are ignoring mechanics and trying to just top ACT, then you can easily have an OP group wipe for hours. It can be divisive and bad all round if a culture of elitism is allowed to take root in raid teams. That goes for both gear level and attitude. There are few people who will sign up for a raid with the aim of spending the night wiping. Most people want the rewards. Some are willing to devote more time to it, and others get frustrated with a lack of results faster, but it's a really negative thing to start separating people based on that.

It may be that there is a need for more runs on the calendar, but it shouldn't be a thing where there are kill runs and scrub (learning) runs.

There IS a guarantee that a team of overgeared people will get a quick kill, I've seen it many many times (30+ maybe?). Additionally, I do not know any player in this cabal that is overgeared and is trying to just top ACT and ignore mechanics (edit: well, maybe Bob 🙂), most don't even run ACT, so not sure where that comes from, although you have a very valid point in theory.
I doubt the raid is doable with 10 e5 geared players. This game is far from balanced (do E7 plus with exactly on level geared players...).The first time 'we' defeated the lurker (and many times after), after hours and hours of wiping, the average gear level was e7+, possibly E8+. There is indeed no difference between a 3 minute kill and a 9:59 minute kill (although the first is 6 min faster), but there is a difference between a kill that you can easily get and no kill at all.
I am also not trying to say players should be separated, but if groups aren't balanced, with at least having a decent shot in clearing it, I for one am not signing up anymore. I did my fair share (and a lot more than that) of learning the fight and clearing it (multiple times per week to help others). I am not going to spend hrs per week so everyone can clear it, unless I have the time to spend hours of doing something that can be done in 10 minutes.

I've done e5 Lurker with an e5 team, think it took us about 9 mins and lots of pain in p3.
I've also seen overgeared teams derp repeatedly - ACT watching is one of many things which can go wrong, and occasionally does. It's even more frustrating when you're in a team who should be able to get a kill in under 5 mins easily and you keep on wiping because people just aren't focused.

It's up to the raid leader to decide if it looks like a raid team is going to get a kill or not. ODO used to have 1 hour allocated to raids, and at the end of that hour, we'd ask people if they wanted to continue or to stop. It was done via PMs to the raid leader, so that there was no peer pressure, and if anyone said they wanted to stop then we called it.
If the raid leader looks at the dps meter and doesn't think there's the damage to get a kill, then instead of just carrying on, it's better practice to talk to the raid about it. That way, if people want to keep going and practice mechanics they can, but if others don't want to, then they don't feel obligated.

It’s cool, will check with raidleader next time. We seem to have very different expectations and experiences regarding raids in SWL, no point arguing. The one hour rule was not applied today by the way.
I was trying to find a solution to an issue people addressed and then saw Duude’s suggestion, which I personally like. It seems now that there is no issue whatsoever regarding NYR E5 that should be addressed, and raids take up to an hour, my bad.

The E10+ players are working to learn and clear E10 NYR just like they did for E5 NYR many months ago. When that happens, the E10+ players are not going to want to run E5 until after they clear E10. This will mean less opportunities for people who are not E10+ to run with E10+ players on NYR E5 clears.

So to me it makes sense, and I think Gyl and Keeper agree, to differentiate between an E5 run that's expected to be a fast clear with mostly experienced, well geared players with 1 to 2 people learning (tanks and healers) or being carried (lower dps players), so that more people in the cabal are capable of fast clearing NYR E5. The NYR E5 learning runs should have a few experienced, well geared players volunteer to join to help teach people trying to learn the fight or people who are still a bit low on tanking, healing, or dps to learn the fight and improve so they can help to fast clear it too.

I agree with AWOL that anyone can derp, or have lag, or have a computer crash etc., but other than tanks and healers if you have many 10K plus dps in group with experienced, well geared tanks and healers you are going to clear fast unless the tanks or healer derp, lag, DC, or crash. Watching ACT is not something that causes wipes in NYR E5. Misplacing filth, dps that's too slow so you have too many golems / adds and too much filth in phase 3 or your run out of time, and either a tank , the healer, or too many dps dying are the primary reasons for wipes. Derps, lag, DCs, crashes, etc. are just another way players can die, but they are random and cannot be anticipated like experience and gear (or you can say mitigation, hps, or dps) and typically if someone critical (tank or healer) is having bad lag, DC's, or crashes they will ask to be replaced so the raid can be successful.

In any case, creating fast clear vs. learning designations on raid groups is an idea that seems to make sense to me because everyone goes in with the same expectations. However, if it's too hard to do logistically or people think it would hurt someone's feelings (not sure why it would), then we can skip it. I think it's a good idea and appreciate the comments and feedback pro and con.

The biggest source of strife is how to decide when someone is allowed to sign up for a fast clear.

If you get say 15 sign ups for the fast run, what is the criteria for selecting who gets to clear it quickly, and who gets sent back to the run which may not clear it at all? If the raid leader does the picking, then how can you guarantee that they aren't just going to pick their friends? We've seen it before with the e5 bump (in dungeons) where there were people with e5 gear who felt that they weren't getting groups not because of gear or ability, but because people like to run with those they are closest to.

There's no guarantee that someone who can parse 6k+ on a dummy in agartha is going to be able to pull those kind of numbers in the raid, which makes it hard to work out outside of the raid, and there are inevitable moments where someone who is benched will see a parse and think "wait, I can pull better dps than the bottom 3 dps, why didn't I get a spot?".

I can understand the frustration, I've spent countless hours wiping in raids too. I know that it feels even worse when you clear the raid in under 10 mins one day and the next you spend hours wiping. It's a really hard situation to solve though.

I think Cayr's got some good ideas, but the one I would add would be for people to all try to help each other learn. If you've noticed that someone with the same weapon combo as you is pulling lower numbers, have a chat, share your build on the forum so that others can see how you're doing so much damage. Just remember that you're not telling them how they must play, just making suggestions based on your own experiences.

Oh and whilst I know that people aren't watching ACT during the fight, there are times when people focus on their rotation to the exclusion of actually watching for the mechanics. It's something that most people do at some point, I know I've done it before 😀

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Good ideas Cayr.

With regard to "telling people they aren't good enough", some time that's exactly what should be done in a kind way with helpful suggestions for improvement. It doesn't do people any favors to not challenge them to improve on occasion, especially if they want to run high level group content. Not suggesting this cabal should become a "power raiding" cabal, far from it, I like the mostly casual nature of this cabal, and I think most others do as well and I have no desire to change that. That said, there are times when we should expect a certain level of skill and experience to go along with the gear when we're trying to clear new high level content or fast clear existing content. I can't imagine why anyone would be offended by that very logical concept.

As a personal example, a certain officer (to remain nameless) ran a duo scenario with me many months ago when I was just starting out in the cabal and had low level gear and I didn't really understand scenario mechanics. I did a crappy job in the scenario and this officer basically told me and anyone who would listen (was bitching about it Discord etc.) that I sucked and how pissed off they were about my performance (and this is just for duo scenario that takes 10 minutes not 2 hours of wiping in NYR).

This particular officer was not kind or helpful in their feedback. I could have bitched about it in tells to people or in cabal chat, quit the cabal, or told this person off and escalated things. However, I choose not to. Instead I apologized for the poor performance, because even though the feedback could have been handled much better, I agreed that I sucked and took it as a personal challenge to learn the scenario mechanics in solo before I did a duo with anyone else. Now I am a much better duo scenario partner, because I took the challenge to improve and didn't expect to be carried by a more experienced, better geared player. People should be willing to learn and put in the time to run high level content and not expect to be carried every week, although we should offer some spots to carry people each week so they can see the high level content to completion. They should also be willing to accept advice and take the time to use the feedback to learn and improve, and those delivering the feedback should be kind and respectful of people in offering feedback and advice to those who want to learn. That is the best way to keep everyone happy, and to continue increasing the number of people in the cabal that can run high level content effectively.

I want to add the example above, which was used as an example of taking the challenge to improve as a player even when it wasn't necessarily delivered in the right way, was the only negative experience I've ever had with an officer in this cabal in the many months I've been a member, and there was an apology afterwards and I have never had a negative incident with any officer or cabal mate since that one many months ago when I started in the cabal, And this is the first and only time I have mentioned it since it happened, but only to illustrate a point about accepting the challenge to learn and improve. The officers in this cabal are a really good group, as is the cabal membership overall.

Thanks Cayr, I understand the difficulties and sympathize. I don't want to ruin the sense of inclusion that we try to maintain. If separation feels wrong, then I think your suggestion to do a bit more enforcing of consistent mechanics challenges or the dps minimums based on numbers in raids (not dummies - I don't think 3.%K should be benched but consistently being below 3K probably should) with some good suggestions from the group on how to improve (positioning, better rotation, weapon selection, potions, etc.). Reasonable requirements for a run are not in place to be mean to the individual player who may not meet the minimum requirement, but to be respectful of the time of the 9 other people in the raid. There is still NYR E1 (which still has good rewards) if people are not quite ready for NYR E5.

I appreciate all the replies and consideration. Signing out on this topic...

My 2 cents.

1. For feck sake be on discord even if you just listen, no need to speak.

2. Pay attention to the raid leaders, don't go running around aimlessly spreading filth etc.

3. Do your assigned job and let others do theirs.

4. If you are new you will probably make mistakes, learn from them.

5. Have fun. 😀